On March 14th, 2006, Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi (1924-2014) was interviewed at Congregation Bonai Shalom in Boulder, Colorado by Sadieh Zaman.

Transcript:

How did you begin to connect Jewish mystical experiences with psychedelic experience?

Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi: Judaism became important to me, and Jewish mysticism, and so on and so forth. So I read about these things, and I had experiences of them; but then I read that there is a 'chemical' way to verify those experiences of the 'spirit,' and that was very interesting to me. And some of the people with whom I was hanging-out at that time were into the same kind of thing. So there was a Dr. Humphrey Osmond and Abe Hoffer [doing research on L.S.D.] in Qu'Appelle, Saskatchewan, at that time, and I wrote to them asking whether I could have an 'experience' in their lab.

By “an experience,” you mean an experience of taking L.S.D.?

Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi: Oh, sure! I had read how Aldous Huxley describes the 'states' that mystics were having, and that he had, because he had taken some mescaline. He called the book, The Doors of Perception. That was a very exciting time. It looked like we would now be able to explore areas of the mind that before only mystics and shamans were talking about, and we wouldn't have to fast and live in isolation for "forty days" or for "three years" time.

But you were an Orthodox rabbi at the time; how did you square this desire with your Judaism?

Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi: It wasn't not kosher! Taking L.S.D. during Pesah [Passover] would be a problem because it is lysergic acid (which comes from ergot, and ergot grows on rye) and that would be hametz [leavened, and not kosher for Passover]. So if I had to go by the basic Shari‘a [playful use of the Islamic term for law], by the basic Jewish law [Halakhah], there is nothing against that. For instance, tonight is going to be [the Jewish holiday of] Purim. And so the commandment is to get so drunk that you don't know the difference between "blessed be Mordecai" and "cursed be Haman." Now, can you imagine if I would want to be able to say, "blessed be Osama," what kind of state of mind I would have to achieve at that time? Well, that was a very inviting possibility, to be able to transcend 'good and evil' and look at the universe from that place [with the help of L.S.D.].

Is that a desirable experience to have from the Jewish perspective, and is it confirmed there?

Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi: Well, imagine if I was the only one who had had that experience, that no one else had had that experience; they used to call that "psychotomimetic," [i.e.] mimicking 'craziness.' So if I couldn't tell anyone in the world about the 'place' where I was and share that, and get a sense that this wasn't all 'crazy stuff' in my head, [I might be in trouble]. When I find this in books like R.M. Bucke — you know, R.M. Bucke — Dr. Bucke who wrote about "Cosmic Consciousness." (A Canadian too!) So, there, you read all about those experiences; and you have a sense that they exist, these 'states' exist. Now finding-out [about these 'states'] and experiencing these 'states' was an important thing for me. So when I am teaching Kabbalah, or Hasidism, I am often teaching about 'places' that are beyond the physical. So that is what you call 'metaphysical.' And so you go into a [teaching], and you say that there are Four Worlds [Olamot], and there are Ten Sefirot [Divine Qualities]; [with these experiences,] you can get closer to the divine heart and to the divine mind.
So these were exciting things to me; and I didn't consider this as going against the grain of my religion.

This video was filmed by Michael Kosacoff, edited by Alec Arshavsky and Netanel Miles-Yépez, and produced by the Yesod Foundation (www.yesodfoundation.org) , (C) 2023.

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